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Oppression of women? Dear Karen (and all who've commented),

Thank you for writing this article. It made me aware of some aspects of this issue that I had not heard about before. Having lived in both Cairo and Philadelphia, I was surprised to read in your article that burkas are becoming popular in France. I had thought the issue was the nikab (veiling of the hair and face, but not a full piece of fabric over the head like a burka) and the higab (headscarf). Burkas are highly uncommon in Cairo, though you see the occasional woman in a nikab and a rare one in a cloth-over-the-head, burka-like outfit. More common is the higab, though even these were uncommon in Cairo up until the last decade. You may wonder why I reference Philadelphia. Philly has for many decades had a large African-American population of Muslims and one sees women in some version of higab pretty much anytime one walks around the city, especially among medical personnel. I have also seen the occasional woman in nikab in Philadelphia. As far as I can tell from living in the area, these forms of Muslim dress have not been an issue locally and people don't make a big deal of it. I have to wonder if the number of burkas in France is some kind psychological response to common French/Western attitudes against traditional Muslim dress, especially since the burka is uncommon in the Middle East in general (not only Cairo), while the nikab is only common in some countries.

While I personally feel an aversion to the idea of women being covered up (and thereby, in our Western eyes, subjugated and mistreated), I also stand firmly by the idea of freedom of expression, whether in dress or speech. I think it is fair for people in France to dislike traditional Muslim dress, but does that mean the government should regulate it? For matters of official identification, such as a driver's license, women should have to show their face because it is simply common sense that you can't identify someone without actually seeing her, but going beyond that seems extreme. While I certainly think badly of people who discriminate or paint a group all with the same brush, I also believe it is an individual's right to think this way and express his or her opinion about it, whether they be French or any other nationality, so I don't oppose people expressing opinions against forms of Muslim dress, but I do oppose government regulations regarding it.

I think the system of how immigrants to the US have assimilated, as well as left their mark on local culture, works quite well, and the influx of Hispanic immigrants that another poster mentioned is just like every other migration our country has gone through before, and after a generation or two people adapt and assimilate. If one needs proof, simply look at how Irish and Italian (and many other groups of) immigrants were thought of ("they're taking over!") and treated in the past. One needs only to look up the origin of the term for a police truck as a "Paddy Wagon" to see this has all happened before, right down to how panicked people get about new groups of immigrants. However, moving back to the particular issue in France, I think it's pretty outrageous to propose a law against wearing particular clothing items. What's next? Will blue jeans be banned because they are quintessentially American and not French? Will Catholic priests and nuns not be allowed into the country or on the streets in their traditional costumes because of their religious nature (and the fact that nuns are also covered up)? Because of its association with the oppression of women, something that I have witnessed entirely too much in my life and that turns my stomach, I understand the dislike of, and even disgust for, the burka and other forms of cover, but I think what should be addressed is how women are being treated, not what they're wearing. I agree with fighting the oppression of women, but does telling women what to wear fight oppression or only add one more form of it? I think the latter.

Assimilation on Whose Terms? Hi Karen. I read with interest your article which was referenced in the Travel Insider this week, regarding President Sarkozy's stand on Muslim women not wearing burkas in France.
You asked for outside opinions, so I will share mine with you. One of the predominant problems in the USA, as well as other countries like France which have encouraged immigration, is that although "assimilation" is offered (and desired by most immigrants), certain nationalities insist on retaining some previously limiting cultural traditions. In fact, they demand their right to pursue them. They expect their new country of residence to act just like the one they came from. Well, hasn't that been the biggest complaint about the "ugly American" on vacation??? They demand that there be a McDonald's to satisfy their hamburger cravings, and they want hotel standards to be familiar, they want everyone to speak English in every foreign country, and they want to act as they would at home even in highly sensitive situations. The travel industry has tried to educate the travelling American about the cultural expectations and differences, so they will be perceived as respecting other cultures' mores and traditions. So, now the shoe is on the other foot.
Why should Muslims now expect the countries to which they immigrate to not expect the same consideration??? If I visited a temple in Bali, and I did not wear appropriate dress, I would not be allowed in. By the same token, if a Muslim woman walks down the street in New York or Paris in a burka, isn't that screaming - - look at me, I'm different, and I reject your cultural customs and standards? There are Muslim women who wanted to get driver's licenses with photos showing their faces completely covered, except for their eyes. Is this not ludicrous? I believe they finally relented, because we simply withheld licenses until they conformed to our standards.
The phrase that comes to mind is "When in Rome, do as the Romans do".
I think Sarkozy is absolutely correct - - many people mistake decency for weakness. Western societies tolerate everything, and this will be our undoing. The strongest and most vocal demanders will overrun the weak, and as we all certainly know (or should know) Muslims seek to take over the world, politically and religiously. They start by demanding their "rights" and before it's over, they will be demanding total compliance. If they can't get it through social tactics, they will get it through violence.
Full assimilation comes when, as Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. said, "we judge people by the content of their character, not by the color of their skin". The burka is a symbol of oppression and should not be tolerated in a free and open society.
Sunan Joop

I agree with Sarkozy. Dear Karen,
Sarkozy says what many are afraid to say… he’s got Guts! I personally do not understand how any western (free) woman or man can defend the Islamic attire and the injustice that it represents. Women and girls are beaten, maimed and killed on a daily basis around the world in the name of Islam. How long can the rest of the world stay mute?

There is also the effect that mass single group immigrants have on a country. A friend of mine is Dutch, and he talks about how they have lost their culture. We all need to stand up to immigrants that try to change our beautiful and unique countries into what they left behind. An immigrant chooses a country that he longs to live in, and he should adapt to that country, not expect the country to adapt to him. In Europe it is Islam. In the USA it is the Spanish language.

I love the differences in every country and I am sad to think of the color beige that this planet is being painted with. Thank you Mr. Sarkozy for standing up and Vive la France!
Mme Kim

My email box is FULL ..... K On Jun 28, 2009, at 12:28 PM, Eugenia Davis wrote:

Dear Karen,

I salute President Sarkozy for his decision on the burka for Islamic women. I would ask those who are opposed to his decision to decide where their loyalties lie - France or an Islamic country? I can see where this could also be a security issue as I think certain things are in the United States too.

I would be interested to know how you feel about preserving the customs and honoring all that is so unique about your wonderful adopted country.

I enjoy your columns.

E. Davis

More posts! Dianne Obeso wrote:

Dear Karen Thank you for the article about Moslem dress for women. Living in San Diego are large populations of Somali refugees, Horn of Africa refugees, and Eritreans. Even my neighborhood now has women walking in long robes and headscarves.

At my junior college a couple of years back I saw a women completely head to toe in black with only her eyes not covered following a man about two feet behind him..it was very alarming to me as I felt she was being degraded.

And yet, in the parking lot, a car-load of brightly dressed, scarved young girls drove up and got out carrying backpacks. They seemed energized and free; I thought good for them as they can drive and are not behind a man walking obediently at a distance from him! Two girls in my French class at that time spoke about 6 languages between them; the were Somali and occassionally wore the full gear just because they wanted to. I am confused by the variation but, of course, this is the US! where it is OK mostly to do your own thing! Macys department store hires young women in scarves but not in the fancier stores. It is hard in hospitals as nurses aides must give men baths and I had several ones from pools say it was against their religion to do that so we could not have them back..these were girls who wore a sort of adaptation of the burka with head scarves.

So..Karen..I am ambivalent and not sure what to think. Will ask my sister her opinion..she is a Doct or Education in LA..the ultimate melting pot..Good topic for thought..Thanks. Dianne

I do feel that any group that controls and forces submission from women or kills them by stoning, etc...honor killings..is beyond all reason..

From: contact@parisvf.com Anther post!



Dear Karen,
I love your newsletter, it's another view of France through your eyes!
I’ve just read your last article about “burqa in France and Sarkozy” and don’t share your point of view. I cannot answer directly on the site, so I’ll try to put it through this email.

I’m a French woman and as such has always be animated by the fact that a woman doesn’t have to be submissive to a man, so I’m used fighting actively for the woman rights.

The burqa isn’t a cloth, it’s a humiliation for the woman, and Sarkozy’s declaration about it is just a statement for the French women (nothing more for us but a kind of another publicity for him) well on purpose I agree …

On the other way, the statement was made on Versailles meeting, which had another goals than such a polemic question with reference to the Muslim people in France : it was more relied on the international economic crisis and the announcement of a new government, but you didn’t made any reference on them in your article!
I’m not a Sarkozy’s supporter , rather the opposite and I just want to let you and your newsletter’s readers know my comments about this article.
Thank you

Pascale Heuzé
Paris Version à la Française

Burqa - Whose choice is it? I have mixed feelings.
When I see a woman in a Burqa, I feel I am looking at someone who is enslaved. A person who is an indentured servant. She is to be given her meals, a roof over her head and the obligation to bear children for her master.

I have never been under the impression that it is the choice of the woman to don this attire. But the comment by Mohammed Moussaoui, as quoted above, “When we meet women who wear burqas, we try to educate them and explain that moderation is a better choice,” implies that it is the woman who has made this decision.

If it is true that woman have this choice, then I feel it is wrong for the French government or any government to deny her this. If it is the woman's choice, then it becomes a matter of freedom of expression.

I, as an American, enjoy living in France. But I don't consider myself to be assimilated. I like being treated as one among equals. I don't think I would enjoy being told what I can or cannot wear.

If, on the other hand, the burqa is something forced upon a woman to indicate a condition of servitude, I would not mind it being banned.

Ellen -- I agree.


Thank you for taking the time to comment. It is a delicate balance between assimilation and an individual's rights.

Banning the Burqa I am not surprised at this move given France's secularism and the fact that headscarves were banned in schools a few years ago, albeit under a different president. It's another reminder of the differences in individual rights between the US and so many other countries