Sorry Chuck, you should have read the article which was not sensationalized. That was possibly how you interpreted my contribution in a quest for comment. It was a well thought out article in terms of pilots' problems.

Why couldn't you access the article. Was my link at fault?

Al, I am a born skeptic, particularly concerning newspapers when they bring sensational news, such as involving dangers in flying today. This is naturally only a generalized oppinion, as I was not able to access the article. However articles like these do sell papers.

BP Chuck

Most of us BPers have concern about airline bankruptcies in terms of the ability to get from one place to another but an article in yesterday's NYTimes entitled "Airline Pilots Still Flying, but No Longer Quite So High. It adds a new dimension to the problem that might involve the safety of air travel. Looking at the situation from the pilots point of view should prompt some of you to post your point of views here.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/10/politics/10pilots.html

My last Air France flight was in the late '80s on a contract with Dassault, so we had to fly French Flag carrier. I wanted to fly AOM on the party flight back from Tahiti, but could't make it, so picked up the non-stop AF flight from San Francisco. AOM was a bit like Singapore - they cared for the passengers like Mike listed below, while the AF flight featured flight attendants with threadbare uniforms, a bit confused about what they were suposed to do, I got practice helping them translate in and out of english, and they all had a distinct need for a shower. In fairness, I must say that the AF business class food was the best I ever had, but the seats were the hardest my rear end was ever subjected to.

Mike, Some of the things one supected, but I am very glad to hear the full story straight from the horses mouth (maybe this is not exactly the best term, but this is as close I can get to the best expression), and they explain a few things. Very edujcational, and proves that history reats itself!

BP Chuck

Airline travel with "Class"... a gone era...
Everything you say Chuck is true...
I started with EAL when Captain Rickenbaker was still "Ze Boss" and although he was somewhat of an "El Cheapo" he never short changed the passengers... First class all the way, including rigid dress code for the Flight Attendants...
My Wife was reprimanded once for forgetting to wear her white gloves while greeting the passengers on board...
(Later on, the airline went from white gloves to "Hot Pants"... talk about going from one extreme to the other)
"Captain Eddie" made huge mistakes however, still buying propeller airplanes when the rest of the Industry was buying jets.
Then came Mister Hall (ex TWA Captain)... "Dapper Floyd" as he was known, big spender, real silverware in all first class flights (with a lot of it missing upon reaching destination), two big corporate headquarters in New-York and Miami, spending money like there were no tomorrow, and while the Airline going broke.
Later on came "The Colonel" Frank Borman the astronaut and he promptly "cleaned up" EAL, firing dozens of "empty suit vice-presidents," closing the New-York headquarters, but still trying to make EAL a true First Class airline, and he came close to doing it.
Unfortunately, he paid the price for years of huge debts and neglect; old airplanes, deregulation, several bad accidents, and yes...Labor problems with very militant unions...
After deregulation, very strong "cut throat" competition began between the Airlines, ticket prices were slashed, so guess why stale bags of peanuts began replacing filet mignons?
Passenger service went to "hell" (I hate that word Karen) in a hurry, and without offending anyone I hope, so did the "quality" of some of the clientele as well as some of the cabin crew members' attitude in having to deal with all this.
And, oh yes, the fuel prices once again... It came close to be the cause of EAL's demise even long before the arrival of Frank Lorenzo...
With a fully loaded Boeing-727 early model (one of the airplane I was flying at the time) each flight was a money loser... Impossible to even break even...
This is what I witnessed while I was "part of the game"...
Mike

Back before the wide body plans, if I remember in 69, I had to go to berlin, and returend through Vienna on Panam. At that time our company still sent us on 1st class. The stewardess woke me with "how would you like your eggs for breakfest."
Comming back, from Vienna, There were two stewardesses on first class, and there were two of us passangers, which was an excellent ratio. First they gave us the Menu, which was about 10" by 15", and the meal was catered by Maxim's of Paris. (I still have the menu). It featured 6 or 7 courses, and the wine list was ot of this world, with top name wines with excellent vintages. The meals alone probably would have cost more than the difference between the tourist and 1st class fares.
At hat NW was known that even on tourist class, before the meals were served, when they opened the tray the first thing they did was "set the table" with a white table loth, and actual silver (or was it silverplate?) utensils. What a contrast between "then" and now, when you do not get even free penuts. I never could understand, that since there are no more "free luches" why they never sold "box lunches, for something like $ 3-5 , They could have had a nice side income. I, in the last few years allways have some beef jerkey with me, just in case I do get hungry (the problem is, I allways get hungry). In July I had to go to Budapest , and from Amsterdam I went via Prage to Budparst on the Chech (sp?) Airline, and both on the Amsterdam-Prague and the Prague-Budapest section we gor a small box-lunch (One sandwitch, a cookie, and an apple). it was good, and could not have cost the airline over $ 1-1.5 per box. Why is it that airlines have to go from one extreme to an other.

BP Chuck

Every one of you dear Friends brings up some very valid points on this tread about the Airlines, and there is a whole lot more I could add, but it would take an entire book.
In my days with EAL we did not have business class on any of our domestic flights... Only tourist and first class, although in the early 70s a few of our flights on the DC-9s were all first class, called "Eastern One" which quickly resulted in a money losing proposition.
Only when EAL flew the Miami-London route did we have business class, and that too did not last very long...
As much as it pains me to admit it, EAL never enjoyed the reputation of being a "First Class Airline"... At one time, there was even a "I hate EAL" club... (Sorry for using the word "hate" Karen, but that is a true story)
And yet, many of us that flew the airplanes always tried to make our passengers feel they were "First Class"... I know I did.
Delta and Northwest will survive, just like US. Air that is now coming out of bankruptcy...
Continental went chapter 11 several times, and they now seem to be doing OK...
For Eastern and TWA it was another story as Joe mentioned... "Corporate raiders" had been waiting for a long time to pick the "carcasses"...
Deregulation also change the "playing" field for all the airlines, added to that was the fuel costs, obsolete fuel guzzling airplanes, high labor costs, bad management, strikes, and... Oh yes...politics, and the New York bankers that ceased to "love us" when the huge interest money stopped flowing into their coffers.
God, I "hate" it to sound like a "French butt know it all," but I have seen all this happen...
Safe travel to all of you... That's the most important.
Mike

Back when I first started flying for business in '67, it was only 25% or so higher per ticket to upgrade to first (I don't remember business class before the 70's - maybe Mike can correct em). Now, as Chuck indicates below, they are alienating the business travelers with exhorbitant ticket prices, compared with coach. My favorite memory from those early years was the piano bar at the back of Continental Airlines.

I can simpathize with Mike's sense of loss due to Lorenzo, as I lost a few friends to Icahn at TWA, not to mention a $100K TWA junk bond that my parents got taken in on. I feel no sense of loss to the meals, as I have done quite well by getting a meal at the local deli, or making one myself. The airlines have not been able to compete with the discount airlines, particularly Southwest, which I fly a lot. I remember Laker airlines, which I always felt that BA bought out to stop the competion. I am surprised that Virgin is still going. What I do feel sad about is that there is a cavalier attitude towards screwing the employees out of their retirement - no moral or ethical quams about doing so, just business (or a megamillion bonus for doing so).

I have been pretty lucky with American Airlines, but their Frequent Flier free awards require way too much reservation in advance for flights to Europe. I suspect that here in the US, at least one of the airlines needs to go under, and a few more consolidate, not only on routes, but on types of aircraft. Ditto for the European flag carriers, which must be under tremendous subsidies to keep flying, although my favorite European airline is Austrian. I can't see them flying for profit unless they can get down to 4-5 total.

Joe

Joe, I think the article is a excellent one, and it is (regretfully) very true.! The only problem not very much emphasised, that the major airline companies also alienated their business customers, particularly the lower level ones that were not eliigible for 1st or business class.

BP Chuck

Gone

Interesting article on CNN Financial news on the causes of the bankrupcies

http://money.cnn.com/2005/09/15/news/fortu..._woes/index.htm

Seems like they blame management, and to some level the unions. Check out the article, which seems to be fairly unbiased.

Joe

They filed for Chapter 11, which does give them the right to cancel such perks as the "frequent fliers miles, etc.
However in an e-mailed letter received this morning the Chairman of the board of NWA assures all "requent fliers" that the Frequent Flier program will be remain unchanged. (He does not mention it, but in spite of this assurance, they do have the right to change or eliminate it (I hope they do not.) According to this morning's paper, the reason for filing now is that that now the law permits the airlines to act in these matters, but it will change if the filing is done after a certain date in the near future (a month or two from now.

BP Chuck

They filed for Chapter 11. They will honor all tickets and frequent flyer miles as long as they remain in Chapeter 11.

If you are holding tickets or reservations on either Northwest or Delta airlines, ( Paid or not yet paid) I would think that you better contact them as soon as possible, and check the status of your tickets and the flights, to be safe.

Today, Wednesday. 9/14/2005 Northwest Airlines and Delta Airlines filed for Chpter 11 Bankrupcy protection. This move gave them certain "powers" The two that may affest many of their passengers are that they do not necessaly have to honor anyreservation, (tickets) that are outstanding. Also they do not have to honor their "Frequent Flier Points" weather they are used to purchase a ticket(s) or not. According to local Newspapers. (also they can cancel any scheduled flights.)
One may think about using up "points" ASAP.

BP Chuck